Live Teardown | Marketing and Business Growth Hacks for Technology Partners


Paul Green and Shannon Murphy focus on strategies that impact your ability to turn website traffic into customers. After attending this webinar, you will walk away with a greater understanding of the strategies that will allow you to make sure every cent you spend on marketing has a greater chance to turn into revenue.

In this on-demand webinar, you will:

  • Listen-in on a lightweight marketing audit for an MSP
  • See a live marketing consultation where you hear both sides of the story: what the Partner wants to convey and the best way to do that.
  • Get ideas you can implement immediately
  • Chat with our community and share your challenges and solution.

During the session, Paul and Shannon will talk with Chris Gorman & Daniel Shone of Apex Computing, an MSP based in the United Kingdom. They’ll share their current outlook on marketing and how they’re working to reform their business processes to support continued growth.

Key Takeaways:

1. Five important areas for MSPs to focus on are - vision, goal, strategy, tactics, and daily actions. Chris feels it's crucial that everybody in the team buys into that vision and feels like they've been a part in creating it when it comes to strategically expanding a business. All of these elements of your business strategy work across your sales and marketing strategy.

2. Let’s talk about your website first.

The basic rule with websites is just to assume that - further down the page, the fewer people see it. So, manage your content in such a way that gets the most attention.

Do you pass the blink test? Your header, “above-the-fold” - can prospects understand what it is you offer and why you’re better than others?

Do something called split testing. You take your original version of a webpage and create an exact copy of that page. In split testing, you change just one element. Keep split testing every element on your website to see what is working best with the traffic coming into it. Even the call to action and the color of the CTA button can make a difference.

3. Now that the prospect knows what you do - can they trust you’ll do it well?

Have ample Social Proof. Social proof is the testimonials, the reviews, and some case studies as well. Show people that you're real and show them social proof, it builds credibility. Even before getting into textual information on your website, have social proof there, testimonials, and some of your five-star Google reviews.

4. Expect your site to book meetings? A calendar widget isn’t enough. It’s how you message or frame the meeting that makes site users likely to sign up.

Emphasize meeting with a ‘Technology Strategist’ instead of a person from the sales team. People don’t want to talk to a salesperson, they want to talk to someone in technology. Shorten the time to a 15-20 minute meeting, people might not commit to 30-45 minutes. If they will book a 15-minute meeting with you and if that meeting goes well, it will become a 45-minute meeting eventually, because you're talking about their favorite subject, which is themselves and their business.

5. When the leads come in… assess if a person is unhappy with their current service provider, ask them to rate their experience on a scale of 1-10, one being awful and 10 being excellent. If they give you an answer in the range of 8-10, just move on. If they rate their experience between 5-8, there is an opportunity coming up there. Any score below five is an immediate and urgent opportunity for you.

You should also be asking this question to your current customers! A way to gather happy customer reviews? Incentivize your team. For example, advise your technicians to ask customers for a Google review after providing good service. Compensate technicians, say, 20 pounds for each review they solicit. They’ll be happy with the wage bump and you’ll be happy with the better SEO and engagement on Google My Business.

6. Content Marketing works! One other tool that you'll get huge value from is to put a buyer's guide on your website or including it in sales follow-ups. It’s essentially a 40-50 page Buyer's Guide, answering every possible question that an ordinary person would have about buying technology. It's a major tool towards educating people. Because the only people that would read that are those people who are genuinely thinking of shifting from one MSP to another.

Educate your prospects. They want the business to be more productive. They don't want the technology to get in the way of what they're doing.

You can repurpose this guide in physical form, adding it to an Impact Box. Any time you send an electronic proposal, package up your Buyer's Guide, swag, maybe some chocolates or something else you know they like. A bribe? Maybe. But really this “in-person” element of showing a little care during the sales process often helps with your conversion rates.


Shannon Murphy:

Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our marketing and sales series. We're so excited you're here with us. This is our live teardown Marketing and Business Growth hacks for technology partners. I'm Shannon Murphy, Chief Marketer at Zomentum, the revenue platform reinventing Channel Sales. Today I'm joined by Paul Green, head of big thinking at MSP marketing edge. If you've joined us before, you know Paul and I, and you know, we're huge marketing and business nerds, so I'm not really going to get into that.

But I would urge you to check out Paul's MSP marketing edge program. Please check out Zomentum, we're bringing you these informative sessions every two weeks and we'll be going throughout the year. But enough about us I would love to talk about our partner volunteers who are volunteering for this marketing tear down which is really just a really attractive name to get you guys to register, there will be no tearing down of these.

It's more so meant to be consultative and helpful. We are also joined by Chris Gorman, CEO and Daniel Schoen managing director of both APEX computing services. So guys, would you tell the community a little bit more about yourselves?

Chris Gorman:

Sure, yeah, I'll go first. I'm Chris Gorman, CEO of APEX computing, Daniel, and I've been in business for well over 18 years. And yet really looking forward to the teardown. Thank you for inviting us both on and looking to get a good insight on how good or how bad our website actually is. From the expert, that is Paul Green.

Paul Green:

Well, we're gonna look at more than your website today. I think we'll look at your entire strategic overview. I cannot let Craig Pearson's comment go and mention which is just before we started, we were talking about whether you're a cat person or a dog person. And I'm 100% a cat person. And Craig said, I didn't realize Paul was a cat guy, I might cancel his service, it's outrageous, that's common Craig, we're firing you as a client. But yes, thank you. So Daniel, and Chris, we have got a lot of work to do.

In the next 45 minutes, what we're going to do is we're going to take a strategic overview of how you get new clients. Now you're a very successful MSP. You're based in the north of the UK. And we're going to drill in a second down into the size of your MSP and what you're doing right now for your strategic marketing. Because even though you guys are doing really well, there's always an opportunity to just tighten things up a little bit, make things a little bit better.

“There's always an opportunity to just tighten things up a little bit, make things a little bit better.”

You mentioned your website, you've got a great website, but again, there's opportunities there to just tighten it up a bit. And the benefit for everyone watching is that it's easier sometimes to watch someone else's marketing be improved and to form an opinion of how someone else's marketing would be improved than it is to look at your own.

My challenge to all the MSPs that are watching this is that as we go through this, and I'm asking Chris and Daniel questions and sort of, you'll be able to see why I'm asking questions and what areas of their marketing I'm looking at, I want you to form your own opinion about what you would do differently with their marketing. What you're doing is you're starting to train your own marketing brain, and you can then come back and look at your own website, and your own lead generation and your own sales process and ask yourself, “well, how would we improve that? If we applied that tweak? What would that do to that? How would it make it better?”

There's no such thing as the perfect one size fits all marketing funnel that works for everyone. But what we can do is we can strategically get something that works for most MSPs. So Daniel, we'll start with you, if that's okay, give us a bit of an oversight on Apex computing. So just the 30 second version of your story where you came from, where you are, tell us where you're based? That kind of stuff.

“There's no such thing as the perfect one size fits all marketing funnel that works for everyone.“

Daniel Shone:

Yeah, started in 2003 with a team of 27 people. We have 200 businesses on retainer, all different sizes, typically, 10 to 50 employees. Me and Chris were best friends at school and started the business together, and grew it to where it is today. Only the BMSB model is what we're focused on. And suppose that's really it as a background.

Paul Green:

And have you ever done break fix? Or is it always the recurring revenue from day one?

Daniel Shone:

For a number of years, I'd say probably for say, last 10-15 years, we did block our arrangements. So in the last 18 months to two years we’ve been really focused on switching that to fixed price per person per month. And just at Christmas, we managed to go from the beginning of last year, we're probably about 30% fixed price, 7% block, and by Christmas time are at 95%, fixed price MSP model. So we've done really well doing that in a year. And that was a big change to get customers to understand that and buy into that process of paying a fixed price rather than a retainer of block ours.

Paul Green:

Yeah, that's fine. I think I find that's one of the toughest transitions. So you've done a cracking job with that. And the two of you in terms of growing the business, obviously, you've got to a certain size now. Do you have service desk managers and a whole management team in place so that you can focus on growing the business and they can focus on delivering the business?

Chris Gorman:

Well, not only it's funny to say that, not only we got a service desk manager, we actually hired a service desk coordinator. So our technical team on the service desk is probably about 12-14 people, which is way too many people to manage the exclusive projects, which are a separate department entirely. So we've actually hired a service desk coordinator, who actually started yesterday. And his role is to support our service desk manager.

Paul Green:

Fab. So he's acting in a dispatcher's role.

Chris Gorman:

Essentially, yeah. Dispatches and taking on something more and sort of administrative tasks and report generation for the service desk manager, which allows her to grow the department.

We also have their pods of engineers. So we've got two parts at the moment. But the plan is, as we bring more engineers into the team, we can break those parts out into further parts. And so each pod can be focused on a certain group of clients. So the game that week, basically, so we can gain that familiarity with our clients, as we grow, as we expand the number of customers and service desk engineers.

Daniel Shone:

I was gonna say that's important. So because Chris and I have grown a business from the ground up. And the customers we've had for 10-15 plus years, they really trust the service and the use of very personal service for me and Chris, and it's gotten larger, one of the aims of these pods is to keep up personal level of service. And we've taken on two more account managers in the last year, to try to keep that level of service high. It has really been a challenge as we grow.

And just on the marketing, we have grown off, mainly off people coming into the website and not networking, not of advertising or going out trying to get customers; it's customers coming in off a website, that they found us on Google, basically, that's been our kind of area of growth over the last 15 years.

Paul Green:

Okay, so we're gonna come on to the marketing in a second. What's really interesting is that whether by intention, or accidentally; and I suspect it's by intention, you've put together all the building blocks for growth over the last couple of years. I've come across the pods model before and I think it's a wonderful model. You're absolutely right, Daniel, that one of the downsides of reaching a certain scale of size of MSP is that you lose the personal contact with the clients which of course was at one point, your USP, your unique selling proposition. It was the fact that they have this personal relationship with you, you can't scale that.

I've seen the pods model before, I think it has its downsides as any model does. But it has massive upsides as well. And part of that is that they are part of a smaller team within a bigger business in terms of the client relationship. So that's very smart. So before we come into marketing, whenever I do any kind of strategic review with any MSP, I like to work down a series of things. And we're going to do this very, very briefly with you.

Now, normally, I would start well, the things are, I'll tell you what they are, and we'll work down. They are vision, goal, strategy, tactics, and daily actions. And these are five categories, five areas that you would look at with any MSP now, we're not going to have time on this call to look at all of these in detail. So we're actually going to spend most of our time looking at the strategy and the tactics. But normally, and for those of you watching, I would advise you when you're sitting down to plan your growth, and I suspect just from the conversations I've had with, with Daniel and Chris, before this call, I suspect they have a very clear vision for where they want to take their business and what they want to do with that business, because they're very highly organized in the way they're tackling that.

So having a vision is a really important thing. And that vision typically is more of a personal thing than it is a business thing. You know, if you have a vision that by the time you're 55, you want to be in an eight bedroom house with a gravel driveway and Aston Martin on the driveway and a holiday home in Portugal, then that's a vision for your life and for to do something like that you need to generate loads of cash as the business but you also need to generate loads of personal time as the business to be able to enjoy that Villa in Portugal.

No one wants to be the miserable person working 12 hours a day at a villa in Portugal, while their rich neighbors are enjoying themselves. So it's really important to have a vision for where you want to take the business and the vision is very much a personal thing. That vision then leads directly into a goal. And the business goal is the thing that really shouldn't drive all of your development. So Daniel, Chris, I'm not gonna ask you to share the specific goal because I find that most goals are quite private to business owners. But do you? Do you have a clearly defined idea of where you want to take the business?

“It's really important to have a vision for where you want to take the business and the vision is very much a personal thing.”

Chris Gorman:

Is it clear at the moment? Honestly, no, it's not clear. Because like you said, over the years, what we've done is we've amassed all these customers, and through all the different activities that we've been able to do. And it's probably only in the last, let's say 12 to 18 months that we've actually really started to put this at the forefront, the vision, the mission, the values. And we've actually engaged with an external agency, I won't mention the name, and to help us establish those.

But one thing that is really important, both Daniel and I, is that you're right, Paul, we do have our own vision, but the way that we're approaching it as a company, we've actually involved the rest of the team in that. So at the moment, it involves Daniel, myself and the rest of the senior leadership team. And what we're actually doing at the moment is building out what that vision is which suits all of us. And then the aim is to bring the rest of the staff into that and get their input as well, before we release it.

I think it's really important that everybody in the team buys into that vision and feels like they've been a part in creating it. I think if we lead with a vision and try to push that on other people. And you know that there might be some people who are not sharing that vision. So we want to find something that works for all of us.

I think something that's worked really well over the last 18 years or so is really sort of good staff retention, and recognizing the contribution because we can't scale our business without our stuff that we've got on the staff that are going to come on board. So to come around to your question. And at the moment, we haven't got a set vision and certainly not one that we can share on this call. But it's something that we're actively working towards and we are involved with the rest of the team on that.

Paul Green:

Great. And that which is absolutely the right thing to do for all the right reasons. For everyone on this call. There are two books that you can read on this, which if you haven't read before, you need to either read the books or watch the TED talks, because the TED there are some TED talks on these books. And they're just shorter versions of the books. Now they're both books by a guy called Simon Sinag, which is in EK, one of them is called start with y. And the other wires in the question why and the other one is called leaders eat last. As I say they're available as if you go and google them as TED talks or books and audio books as well. And both of those books talk very succinctly and deeply about why it's so important to engage with your staff as you're doing the kind of transformation that Daniel and Chris are doing here.

So let's get into it straight to them. Now we're not today talking about retention strategy or upselling strategy. That's obviously an account management thing. And it should always be part of the growth strategy of any MSP. How do we keep these people, we cannot assume great retention, as we get bigger and bigger, we have to work hard at it. And we cannot assume as well that they will choose to spend more unless, again, we work at it. And that's to do with quarterly business reviews, using a profit Matrix technology roadmaps, all of those kinds of fun tricks. What we're talking about today in terms of strategies, brand new client acquisition. So I guess, Daniel, this is more of something for you to talk about. Give us an overview. And again, don't go too much into the details or give away any secret sauce. But give us an overview of what the business does right now to generate new leads to warm those leads up and to turn those leads into prospects and ultimately clients.

Daniel Shone:

And I think we're in a really good position with all SEO, and we do get a lot of leads into the website, and we were talking just before this call, I think we probably had 30 leads in January, because we are organically listed highly for key areas. So it supports Manchester IT support Bolton, we've got really good landing pages, it just generates a lot of inquiries. And it is a bit like scraping the bottom of the ocean and bringing everything in and deciding which ones you want to keep, which is a bit different than a lot of the kind of over MSPs that we speak to when events are really going out and targeting certain types of customers. We haven't gotten to that yet.

What we realize is there's a point in our growth plan where just scraping the bottom of the ocean isn't going to work for us because we're going to need to start focusing on specific types of clients and go and getting those clients and bringing them in the bottom scraping is working to get a service size of 200 businesses.

But it can't, it won't allow the speed of growth, we probably want him for the next five years. And it won't allow us to kind of get those types of customers that we want every time. You know, for a moment it's working for us. But we do need to change something. And that's partly why we're looking at our marketing strategy as a whole and what to do next.

Paul Green:

So tell me what an ideal client looks like. And go into some detail about this. What I mean by detail is you might say, Well, typically when asked this question an MSP will say 50 users, you know, 30 to 50 users or above, and that's not really a target criteria. Tell us about the business. So what kind of business sector or sectors could they be in? How many staff would they have geographically? Where would they be based? Is it an owner driven business? Or is it a manager driven business?

Daniel Shone:

Yeah, typically, our clients are owner driven, not an IT manager, just because typically now even a company of 100-200 employees doesn't need an IT manager, because the technology is changing and the way that the devices are managed. What I would say is Chris and I have been having a conversation last few weeks our mindsets completely changed in that we used to think that basically we take on the customer it might be five years or 10 years is a minimum, not really trying to do is look at the profitability of that customer or what that prospect is. Because to take on 10 years of business is probably the same amount of management as a 30 years of business. And when you put the account management and all the costs in there, the profit levels are so low, is it really worth all the background noise of having those types of customers and it's different for every MSP.

But we've all kinds of costs that we're incurring, and the types of engineers we have and the types of account managers and our skill sets when we're trying to kind of cut down that noise. And we will take on 10 user customers, but we have to price it in such a way that the profit meets our minimum. And this is really the newest poll. So I've not got all the details to put in there. But that's our focus, really, and I had an inquiry today, you know, less than 10 users but very engaged, you want to take our product sets and are interested in things like the BDC our products are interested in or application whitelisting and or advanced security products.

So we're going to take those sets and they're prepared to pay a certain price per user per month for a good level of service on their IT support. And that might be the industry and typically if it's you know, like a solicitor's firm or if it's medical, they are ready to pay those kinds of prices with less users. So I thought, Yeah, where is it? We started talking about verticals, but it's really customers that are wanting to invest and take our recommendations and spend that money and it's profitable at the right size.

Paul Green:

No, no, I can hear that this is a very transitory thing for you. So actually, I think I can help you get some clarity on that. When we finish our webinar in 40 minutes, the phone rings straight after that. And it's a prospect. It's someone who's gone to your website, they've read the website, they liked what it is they've picked up the phone and they've called you and they've got put straight through to you and the more that person talks, the more you start rubbing your thighs and you're salivating and you're shutting down notes. You're like ah, these people are perfect. Tell me what the person at the end of the phone says?

Daniel Shone:

They're engaging in wanting to invest in security or wanting to invest in backups and are interested in business continuity. It's important to be safe against things like ransomware. And they want to know how we can help them. I think we've talked about this when I bumped into previous Paul events and so on, we're very lucky because we've got customers coming toward us. And the ringing goes, typically, but angry or upset with the current provider.

The problem with going out and trying to attract customers of Mailshots or go and bring them in and this is something we'd like advice on that we've not got the skill set to do at the moment is you trying to convert them and get them at that point where they're ready to change provider are very lucky, because people are bringing, as I've made a decision to change, nine times out of 10, they've made a decision to change and the probably in pain, that a ransomware attacked, the backups failed, they've got bad levels of service, they're unhappy, it makes my job really easy, because I'm just asking them,

  • What's wrong?
  • Why did you call in today?
  • How can we help?
  • What are the focus points for your business?

And if their focus points align with what we're offering, then we really move forward together. And we probably got a one in three chance of converting. So we're very lucky as a business as an MSP, that we're getting those kinds of inquiries. Yes. So we know that can't carry on forever, you know, we have to start focusing on the customers who want them, and bring them in.

“They’ve made a decision to change and are probably in pain, that a ransomware attacked, the backups failed, they've got bad levels of service, they're unhappy. It makes my job really easy, because I'm just asking them, what's wrong? Why did you call in today, how can we help? What are the focus points for your business? And if their focus points align with what we're offering, then we really move forward together.”

Chris Gorman:

We want to try and attract customers that see both Apex as a partner, and not just the cost. And I think that, you know, historically, it has been just seen as a cost. So I think what we're really interested in is, how do we attract those customers that really see MSP as a partner? And I think, Shannon, you said it earlier on the call, you know, we want them to see Apex as part of their team. And when we get that relationship, those are the customers that we want, you know, it doesn't matter if it's 20 users or 200 users, we want the customers that are going to engage with us and seal that strategic partner really and not just the cost.

Shannon Murphy:

I just wanted to make a point to the issue that Daniel was laying out in terms of that ideal customer. When they're calling you and they're comparing you to another service provider, they have failed them then they are at that conversion point. That's why you can drive that conversation forward.

Then when you talked about going out there, you even indicated to the window, right, like, I'd like them to get some awareness about us. That's up here at the top of the funnel, that's where you're struggling. And I think Chris linking that to your point is we have to take that opportunity to educate those people so that they understand the problem.

It's like we need to hit that pre awareness stage of human understanding, there's an issue, how do I best go about resolving it by working with a partner like Apex computing, right? Because there's ways that people will go around a problem that might not even be hiring you that applies to all businesses, right?

“When they're calling you and they're comparing you to another service provider, they have failed them then they are at that conversion point. That's why you can drive that conversation forward.”

Daniel Shone:

Yeah, yeah. So again, getting into that mindset. So we're ready to change because you've educated yourself in SharePoint and realize there's a problem with the current provider.

Shannon Murphy:

That's marketing right there. Yeah, it is.

Paul Green:

But I think there's only so much you can do in a certain amount of time. And I think everyone wants partners, right down to all the vendors. And then I've only been in this world for six years. And when I first came in, and all the vendors were like, Hey, we've got 2000 partners. And I'm like, what does that mean? And what they actually mean is we've got 2000 clients that, you know, write down the whole language in this entire channel as partners.

It's a public partnership. And in the real world, people don't talk about that. The true partnership, I think he's built over time, in the same way that when you meet the person who goes on to become your wife, or your husband, you don't know if you might fancy that person a lot early on, but you have to go on a hell of a lot of dates before you decide to go steady with each other and a hell of a load more time before you decide to move in with each other and a hell of a load more time before you get married. And at that point, you truly become partners. And I think you can't rush this partnership right from the beginning.

My personal view, and it is only a view, is that the partnership comes over time. The job of hooking in the new clients is that your right people get to that point where they're so dissatisfied with their incumbent that they are willing to overcome the enormous inertia loyalty that is keeping them with their incumbents.

And if we look at the psychology of the average business owner or business manager, there's a whole series of things that stop them from just switching MSP like that. The first of those things is and is one of the four big marketing problems that MSPs face. The first thing is that they don't know what they don't know. So it's really interesting. Daniel, you just reeled off a series of things that you would like people to be interested in. You said, you want them to talk about security and backups and ransomware. And I think you said disaster recovery.

These aren't the things that the average business owner or manager talks about. So they know they want the outcomes, they know they want to sleep better at night, they want the business to be more productive. They don't want the technology to get in the way of what they're doing. But the vast majority of them, and I'm sure you have this experience, when you're talking to them, the vast majority, they might say the word ransomware. But they don't really know what a ransomware attack is. And they certainly haven't seen one. So they don't know how terrifying it can be. They might say to you, oh, yeah, we want to be in the cloud. But you go and ask them to try and explain what the cloud is in a single sentence that makes sense. And they're just like, oh, well, it's how the bank works, isn't it, they don't know how to explain these concepts.

So we actually call it this is why we say they don't know what they don't know. And when someone doesn't know what they don't know, they cannot make a cognitive decision about sticking, they cannot decide whether or not their incumbent is any good. Whether you guys are any good, or whether someone else that's come up on the Google search is any good, because they do not have the technical ability to make that decision.

“When someone doesn't know what they don't know, they cannot make a cognitive decision about sticking”

If you were selling to IT managers, and you were co-managing it. It's a whole different marketing game, because those people have the technical ability to tell whether or not you know what you're doing, just by asking you the right questions that the ordinary people don't.

So this is why we have inertia, loyalty, they are not making decisions with their brains, they're making decisions with their hearts, when the brain hasn't got the information to make the decision, it delegates it down to the heart, they are making emotional decisions. So to put it another way or not, Daniel, you do predominantly the majority of the selling in the business.

Daniel Shone:

We split roles about 18 months ago, so Chris's focus internally, and I'm just focused on new business and top 20 accounts for management.

Paul Green:

So essentially, people are picking Apex or not picking Apex based on whether or not they like you.

Paul Green:

Exactly it's got nothing to do with your accreditation, your qualifications, your technology, your experience, none of that. All of that contributes to how you talk and the confidence with which you talk. But that's not primarily why they're picking you, they're picking you based on their trust in you. To ask someone to leave their incumbent and move over to someone new that they don't really know, it's a big deal.

Many MSPs have sat in sales meetings and had two or three meetings where it seems like you're going to win the prospect, the price is right, the packages are right, they seem right using REITs and then they go and sign another contract with their incumbent that they've been winching about for the last four weeks. It kind of doesn't make sense, and actually doesn't make sense, because it just means at an emotional level, they haven't engaged enough with you.

So I think the challenge here is, well, there's a couple of different approaches that you could take to this, you have a massive strength that most MSPs don't have, which is that you are getting an enormous amount of organic, and reasonably qualified traffic to your website. So most of the time, when I do these marketing tear downs, no one's ever getting any traffic to their website, and they're just not generating organic leads. You're actually in a massively advantageous position, compared to most MSPs.

I think the trick for you now is, maintaining that organic inbound traffic, because those are the people who are ready, nor nearly reading, ready, willing and able to take action. They're nearly there. They're not quite there yet. But you certainly have an opportunity there and there isn't an opportunity to lose an opportunity to it, qualify them in a better way.

I think there's also an opportunity for you to put in place some outbound marketing and just very quickly on this because I do want to move on to looking at your website. Because that's a big part of this. Outbound, for example, might be where you sit down the two of you and you determine what makes a great client. You mentioned engagement. And you mentioned that there's an emotional thing. But actually, you know what, we need businesses of a certain size. So there's got to be a minimum of 25-30 users. We want them to be in one of these five or 10 sectors because hey, we've done accountants, we CPAs, we're good at those. We've done some lawyers, we're good at those. We know we don't want to touch dentists, because they're a pain. We know we don't want to touch these or whatever is the case. So you can say right, let's see how many lawyers there are within a 50 mile geographical radius of our office which is our comfortable service. That is this kind of size of business. Let's buy their data, which you can go and completely legally buy their data. Then let's target them, let's turn them into our dream 100.

The dream 100 is a concept in an amazing book written by a guy called Chet Holmes. It's called ‘The Ultimate Sales Machine’. Although it was not written about an MSP, it could have been written about an MSP because it's how you put in place an outbound sales and marketing campaign where you're actively going out and you're targeting the kind of people that you most want to do business with.

Essentially, you target them and you put in place a multi touch point campaign. So that would involve some direct mail that would involve some email, it would involve connecting to them on LinkedIn, it would involve messaging on LinkedIn, because messaging on LinkedIn has 100%, guaranteed deliverability, although you still can't force him to read it, it would involve some email, it would 100% involve some phone as well. So you'd have all of these and that's outbound phone calls. The goal is not just to send out some stuff, ring them up and say, “Do you want to talk to us or not”, the goal is actually to build a relationship with people over a period of time before they are upset with their incumbent.

So as their unhappiness levels with their incumbent rise, your marketing it almost as though the universe wanted the two of you to be together, that your marketing, your messages just happened to cut through to them at exactly the right moment, that they had reached a level of unhappiness with their incumbent. Actually that wasn't anything to do with the universe at all. That's you doing a sustained campaign at 100 or 200, or 300, or 400 ideal clients for you in your ideal area, and just keep doing something and communicating with them and educating them and entertaining them on a regular basis.

The key to this is being systematic. Sometimes MSPs do a big campaign and do six weeks of action, loads of stuff, and then they stop, and they don't do anything for another six to 10 weeks. And that will never, ever beat doing little and often. If you've got a fairly sizable business with some resources. Now you say you've got a marketing agency, which is great. We previously to this call, talked about you taking on an extra marketing resource into the business, you've clearly got some cash and therefore the ability to buy some time to throw at this.

The trick for you is saying right, how can we put in place some KPIs, some key performance indicators of some activity levels that we do as a business every day to do three things? Number one, how can we build our audiences of people to listen to us, and that's your audience on email. That's your audience on LinkedIn. It's your audience that you're sending out pretty newsletters to, your audience of people you're phoning, it's your audience on Facebook as well, depending on who your targets are.

Number two is how can we build a relationship with that audience. And that is about sending out emails, it's about posting on social media, it's about messaging, it's about phone calls, it's about multi touch points. You never want to just focus on one channel, you want to touch the same people multiple times in lots of different ways.

Then finally, it's about how do we commercialize this? How do we spot the point at which someone is nearly unhappy enough with their incumbent to do something about it? I'll give it to you guys, for everyone on this call, let me give you the most powerful question you can ask anyone on a phone call? And the question is this and then Shannon, I'm going to ask you just to talk for a couple of minutes just while I load up the website for us to look at. So that the question is on a scale of one.

This is why you're on the phone to a prospect and especially this works really well if you've already had a few calls with them on a scale of one to 10 where one is awful and 10 is world class and can't be beaten. What score would you give to your current IT support company? If they answer 10, nine, maybe eight, there's nothing there for you now, move on, keep them in your loop, send something to them every couple of months or so. But they are happy. In fact, that's the score that you'd want all of your clients to give to your MSP because that's a truly bonded client score.

Now, if they answer, maybe eight, certainly seven or six, there is an opportunity coming up there because that's actually the score starting to get low, it's starting to get down to sort of that halfway point. That means that there's a level of dissatisfaction. Now sometimes that dissatisfaction has happened because there's been a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes now and again, you made mistakes with clients, I've made mistakes with clients. You make the mistake, you either move on or you don't move on and it happens and it's unfortunate. So it might be a one off mistake.

What's more opportunistic for you is where the client perceives that levels of service have dropped down. I think clients Leave MSPs not because of big mistakes, not because of big things, but because of small things. And I'm sure you've seen this challenge as you've grown from just being the two of you doing everything to having a proper business with proper staff. Some of your earlier clients, even though they're probably getting twice the value that they were in the early days, they don't know that, and what they'll say to their account managers things like all, it was much better in the old days, when I could just call Daniel at eight o'clock on a Sunday night because my printer wasn't working, which to all of us were blowing our brains out at that.

To the client that was a higher service level 20-10 years ago, then they're able to get today. We all know that's not scalable. So it's a challenge as a business grows. Any score below five or below is an immediate and urgent opportunity for you. Certainly if they're down in the fours threes, twos, or even negatives, you know, they get a negative 10 score that tells you there's a massive level of unhappiness. So that question alone can help you to grade how urgent this opportunity is. Shannon? Do you want to just pick up on some of those points while I load up the website?

Shannon Murphy:

Absolutely. Yeah. I I love that question. Because it's a wonderful way to quantify that this should be in all of your account records when you're doing these initial consults. Because from there, I think you'll start to assess what gives you a data point to assess what are good leads or bad leads based upon that.

Whereas otherwise, we are constitutively telling you to ask certain questions, but the answers differ, you try to record those in notes. And it makes it hard to compare leads to other leads. So I think historically having that information, it's fantastic.

Something else that I wanted to bring up when Paul was mentioning asking that question to your current clients, I think if you have not assessed current level of happiness, or indicators like that with your current clients to survey them, right, how likely they are to recommend you, I think that that would be really important to do internally. One of the reasons I want to mention both the unhappy leads and the happy clients is because from a language perspective, when you ask them that question, you get the number two, ask them to elaborate on them, it's going to give you some great words that you can integrate into your site.

Happy clients should be giving you the verbiage that you utilize not just from case studies on your website, right, and unhappy leads are going to give you problem statements that you can literally utilize and put onto your website so that somebody else comes there and they see somebody like them literally writing out the problem that they are facing and dealing and it gets you away from like the Marty's the copywriting copy and into actual language that your ideal clients, both current as well as future are using and you can utilize that language to attract more of the same.

Chris Gorman:

Shannon you've hit something there because one thing we're really good at actually is getting feedback from our customers. So we use a program called simple sat and every time a ticket gets closed, It happily gets sent out with that IRP yes or no or a grading actually.

We also do quarterly surveys to ask some key questions that change every quarter to gauge satisfaction. But the bit that we're missing, which you've touched on, is that we're gathering all of that positive feedback, but we're not really doing it to sort of say, “All right, our customers are happy and not like posting it all over the website or posting it all over social media.” So you've given us a good idea that we need to maybe talk about that a bit more.

Shannon Murphy:

Service perspective, right to make sure you have happy clients. If you have to correct anything with processes and operations, you're doing that. Taking that information and using marketing.

Daniel Shone:

we do do that just quickly share that might be good for the people on the call is that we incentivize the engineers, but if you've done a good job, and it's gone well on the telephone, if you say to the customer, if you leave us a Google review, or five star Google review, I'd really appreciate it. And we actually give an engineer 20 pounds for every review you get. So in the space of a year we went from 20 Google reviews to 130. The engineers are incentivized, some of them get two or three reviews a week, it really bumps up the wage, but it really helps us for SEO as well. So something as simple as that has been really good for us

Shannon Murphy:

Yeah, take note, our listeners on the line.

Chris Gorman:

I'll get in there on this simple SAP thing. I'm not a reseller, that or any camera. If they answer a certain score, you can actually direct them to leave a Google review on your own website. So it follows up with another link. It automates it which is always a good thing, you know, in a larger MSP.

Paul Green:

Yeah, that's very clever, isn't it? So we're gonna just move on to your website just for 5-10 minutes and because websites are such an important part of marketing, it's your shopfront, essentially, and we'll just look at the homepage. I'm going to switch into being slightly more critical because just for speed. I just want to tell you some things that let's call them opportunities for improvement, not stuff that's broken. But it's the same thing.

So if we were to look at this and we know a lot of organic traffic comes into your website. Websites aren't just about traffic, most MSPs don't talk a lot about sorry, mega backstep with websites is about traffic and conversion, and foot for your conversion is getting someone to book something with you or to declare themselves a lead.

Now with most MSPs, we never end up talking about conversion, because they have such low levels of traffic, but you actually have high levels of traffic. So I'm to jump into tell mode just for speed and I'm going to recommend just a series of small improvements you could make that's really important though, if you have a website that already does really well.

So rather than just with most MSPs, I just say change this, change this, this will be so much better, I'm going to recommend you guys do something called split testing. I'm sure most people on the call have heard of split testing. You take your original version, which is let's call it your version A, and you create an exact copy of that page, which we'll call the version B. On version B, in split testing, you change just one element.

So for example, you've got a headline here of experts in IT support in Manchester, which is not a particularly engaging or eye-catching headline. So you might do a split test where you can use a software called Google Optimize for this and you don't even have to build a page, it creates a copy of the page and you can just change the element and then it will do the split test. So it'll send the first visitor to page A, the second visitor to be the third visitor to a fourth to be, and so on.

So you're splitting your traffic between those two pages, and you tell Google what the outcome you'd want and it might be that the outcome is you want someone to press that ‘speak to us’ button there, which would be a good outcome to measure. So on your test page, you might have something where you change your headline, and just out of interest, how many humans I'm not going to use the word users because users is a terrible word outside of our world. But how many human beings do you support? Do you think so? Not how many clients but if you're tuned to clients, how many humans.

Chris Gorman:

about 4600?

Paul Green:

Okay, so let's make that specific because specificity sells. You try saying that when you've had a couple of beers. So 4658 People in Manchester rely on us to keep their business running every day. Which is a completely accurate figure, because that's the actual number of people that support you and that's a very impressive figure. Now that works in the word Manchester, I can tell Manchester is important to you. Because down here in your chat, you've got quite a slightly weird opening question. Hi there. How can we help? Did you know Apex computing is based in Manchester? And of course, the answer to that is near the fact that you're based in Manchester so we're based in the UK second or third biggest city depending on whether you're talking to someone from Birmingham or Manchester. It almost has a bit of apathy, a bit of a well, who cares about it? Unless you're telling me you've split tested that question that actually gets the best response and gets them talking, which it may do. But certainly, it will be worth split testing that headline, it will split test this sub headline, is that Manchester in the background there that picture?

Chris Gorman:

And yeah, I mean, it's the Salford key. So there are offices based in Safa keys, which are part of Greater Manchester. It's local, we're quite insistent on making sure that all of the pages have got local.

Paul Green:

Yeah. But of course, being based in Manchester isn't a USP. It’s not a unique selling proposition because you probably have 200 competitors, and all of whom can copy exactly that. The actual only USP that you've got - It's people, even a business of your size you've got more social proof than anyone ever, which we're going to talk about using seconds.

Social proof being the testimonials, the reviews, and some case studies as well. So I would split test the headline, then I would split test the button, the call to action, even the color when you're getting good traffic coming to your website, even the color of the button can make a difference. And I can see from that pink and the green that it's been matched to your brand colors, but sometimes matching call to action buttons to brand colors can actually reduce response.

I would split test the picture to the picture of Manchester versus a shot of you and your team. All of you wearing a pack APECs branded T shirts just so it's obvious that you know instantly that qualifies people who are pre qualified people who might inquire to you, because someone who's you know, a two man band with three laptops and an iPad to support which you will only support at a minimum spend level is likely to be put off if they see a team of 20 people in the shop, because they'll look at it and say, Oh, no, we, we just want someone to just help us when things are broken. This is a proper IT company. So people, you may actually generate fewer leads. But the leads that you do generate are of a higher quality, for example, and that can be a win in some way.

“Sometimes matching call to action buttons to brand colors can actually reduce response.”

Shannon Murphy:

I just want to say one item before you move on related to the headline, I love the specificity on the number of humans that they support. But I also think just to drive this point home for everybody, it's about impact. How many people are you impacting and improving their lives, right? And you want your visitor to the site to identify with that.

I want my life to be improved and simplified as well. And the other thing about the chat, you say hi there, how can we help? The other reason is just like the math of the second question: you also make it about you, right? So go through your site and look at moments where yes, we want to learn about you so we can trust you. But find a way to shift it subtly. So you're talking about the persona of the person that you're trying to attract first. And then how do you solve for me, right? If you start talking about yourself, first, you're going to lose them. So I'll just say that before. Before we move on, Paul?

Paul Green:

Yeah, you're absolutely right, it's got to be completely focused on them. So as we go down, this is a beautiful sight. This is vision. I'm not a designer, I'm a marketing strategist. I can tell you've spent a lot of time and effort and money on this. And I think it's beautiful. I think the opportunity for you is to put more people in front of me and put more social proof in front of me.

So a couple of times now, you've talked about the Google reviews and you've talked about testimonials. You've talked about case studies, the reason that Social Proof, first coined by Dr. Robert Cialdini in 1984, in the classic book on the ‘Psychology of Marketing’, which is called Influence, is so important, and social proof works because we as humans are still programmed. In the same way with the same programming we had 100,000 years ago when things ate us. And so we learned that same there was safety in numbers, if you were in a cave, and you woke up in the morning, and everyone was running to the back of the cave, you didn't sit there picking your nose going on what's going on, you ran with those other 20 people because we were essentially herd animals back then and we've got the same programming right now.

So if we go back to our uneducated business owner, who's thinking of switching from one IT support company to someone else, it is safer that we can make it seem to them better. And the safest way to do this is to show them the people, show that you're real people and show them social proof.

What I would love to see here, before you even get into this kind of text here is I would love to see social proof here, I would love to see testimonials. I would love to see some of your five star Google reviews, actually. So we've got a link here, which is superb testimonials and we've got a link to five star reviews, I would go a step further. Your website designers are going to have an aneurysm when you tell them I've suggested this, but we don't care what website designers say. Because website designers design sites that look beautiful on their portfolio, so they could sell more sites.

What we're more interested in is what gets us more qualified leads. I would take the best 5-10-15 pieces of social proof and either ideally screenshot it or if that doesn't work in this design, then just copy it and put it on the page, because we're asking people to click through. Every time you ask someone to click through to do something, the vast majority of people don't do it. You go and look at your Google Analytics, or you put in a tool like hot jar, or Lucky Orange, which will actually film videos of people using your website or their anonymous videos.

But you can see what real people do, you will see that people simply do not click through to look at these kinds of things. Whereas when they're on the page, well, they don't even actually read them when they're on the page. But the fact that you've got 5-15 reviews or testimonials there on the page that has an influential aspect over what people are doing, then we've got a call to action, which is great now that call to action is going to a calendar. So that's actually a different call to action to this one here. And one of the other opportunities for you on this site is to standardize your call to action.

So for example, I'm guessing that if I bought that, that goes to a calendar. That is the best call to action right now. Now I say that because I work with 600+ MSPs, I advise all of them to use this call to action book A Calendly. John and I have taught the time and I'm drawing coming to a close. This is the best call to action because it's for the hottest prospects, this is the best thing to do. There's a couple of things you can do to tidy this up, John got back to in a second. You may have split tested, or wherever we gone, we've done that to a long page. You may have split tested whether sending someone to the Contact Us page versus booking a live calendar is the right thing to do. If you haven't, that would be another split test to do.

The reason that bookings on a live calendar works really well is because someone can be on your site at two in the morning. But they can take action which they know has been completed. Some people, not everyone, hate filling in a contact form. Because it feels as though it just vanishes off, it's gone. You know, people can send an email, but it's not that instant action that they want to take now for those who are ready, willing and able to do something about it. Now, even if it is in the morning, having a live calendar allows them to book something that suits your diary, and it suits their diary.

Now the changes I would make is I would get rid of meet the sales team. No one wants to talk to a salesperson, they want to talk to someone in technology. So I would say meeting with a Technology Strategist, it doesn't matter if that actually is a salesperson, that's what you would put with that. I'd also put a 15-20 minute meeting, people will not commit to 30-45 minutes. Now, if they will book a 15 minute meeting with you and if that meeting goes well, it will become a 45 minute meeting, because you're talking about their favorite subject, which is themselves in their business.

But as you know, people are taking a tentative step. It's the reason that not that many people these days just pick up the phone and call you. The only reason they did that back in the 90s was because there was no other way of doing it. You found someone in the yellow pages, you called them up, that was all that you could do. These days, many people, not everyone, but many people will do anything to avoid having to pick up the phone or something like that. Whereas going in and booking a 15 minute appointment. Oh, there we go. 15-30 minutes, perfect. So you know being able to go in and book that is absolutely perfect. And I would here instead of asking the question, because we sort of have the same question here that we were asking at the very top of the page. I would actually tell them what's going to happen. Show them a photo of the person they're going to speak to name that person, because I think we've already established that tell us a little bit about Daniel, tell us what's going to happen on the call.

You can say on the call, we're going to spend 15 minutes talking about your business, what frustrates you about your technology, I'm not going to ask you any difficult questions, I'm not going to use any jargon. And I'm not going to try and sell you anything at all, this is a chance for you and me to see whether you could be a good fit for us. We could be a good fit for you. And we can arrange to meet up properly from there. So everyone knows what the purpose of that Zoom call is. And I'm going to stop at that point. I could talk for hours about this, Shannon. But I'm okay.

Shannon Murphy:

I agree with Paul about showing a person. I just want to make a minor point here on the SEO- front. Like this is almost when I see something like this feeling like, Okay, we took it too far. Right? Like its support company in Manchester. I don't suspect that you are trying to optimize your actual calendar page, do you get what I mean?

So for that to filter through to an area where I'm trying to book an appointment with you, and it's probably more important for me to see a person that's like a mismatch at that point, if that makes sense.

Paul Green:

Jumping, because I've just spotted, you've got this amazing social proof.

Shannon Murphy:

I was just about to say that I was looking at the time, but I was going down further.

Paul Green:

Look at this, oh, my goodness, you've got everything here. It's just all in the wrong place. So all of that. So the basic rule with websites is just to assume the further down the page, the fewer people see it, and you can prove this to yourself because you've got the traffic, we don't have to guess at it, go and put in hot jar so it's hot Lucky, Orange is an alternative, they will slow your site down slightly. So these are not permanent tools. They're tools to give you the information you need. And you can they'll do your heat maps showing you where people's attention is and they will show you videos I always find the videos the most interesting bit and you will be horrified how few people are getting down past I'm going to take make a gut feel a gut guess that they're not getting past the video, the vast majority of people and yet your best content is down here. It's okay, logos. It's this. Look at this. This is beautiful.

You've got a case study and what would be nice if I could click that case study to go through to the full case study. And then we've got where is it done here? Another case study. Then we've got all these testimonials. So you've actually got everything you need. You just need it to be as high up as you can make it because at the stage where someone's just at that very early beginning, it's not about you, it's about the safety. And if you can immediately grab them and show them, you're a serious player. And you know, just the fact that you've got this well organized, well designed website, you get that social proof up there. That in itself, I believe is going to make a bigger difference to your conversion rates.

Shannon Murphy:

Something that I thought it was, Paul said that a lot of great things are here, but maybe they could be reordered, as he said that Paul and I are scrolling through I saw that video. And I thought, yeah, like the video could be super engaging and could show off the team. Like, why don't we move that into the header? There are better options with websites, right? Where you can put the video right there with the coffee. So should we be putting it out there maybe?

Chris Gorman:

What would we offer? I think you both hit the nail on the head, because what we're finding from the stats that we get through Google is we are getting a lot of visitors to the site. We are getting quite a lot of leads that need to be qualified on the back of that. But the number of visitors to the site is massively disproportionate to the people that are actually leaving information there. So it may be right in that they aren't getting past that first bit. But we're getting a hit on the website. So it's definitely some good feedback there that we can look at.

Paul Green:

One other tool I must recommend to you because I think you'll get huge value from it is to put a buyer's guide on your website so that there's a book I'm going to recommend, and I've got it here, It's called ‘they ask, you answer’ by Micah Sheridan. It's a great book, I'd actually get the audible version and listen to it. And you only need to listen to the first two thirds. The final third you can disregard but the basic idea behind ‘they ask you answer’ is you answer people's questions before they've got them.

Your website goes a long way towards doing that. But you could go further, there's a tool that I put together for the members of my MSP marketing edge service. And that's a buyer's guide. So we sat down and wrote, like a 40-50 page Buyer's Guide, answering every possible question that an ordinary person would have about buying technology. And the idea is that our members put their name on the front, they change the details, they put it on the website and it's a major tool towards educating people. Because the only people that would read that are those people who are genuinely thinking of shifting from one MSP to another.

Daniel Shone:

We have one of those or digitally made it by I use it when about an inquiry. I send them my proposal and a follow up with mental health issues around IT providers, but it probably needs to be on the website. But more prominently, doesn't it?

Paul Green:

You wonder about the buyers guide, reading it, making sure people can find it. You want your buyer's guide to be in the hands of every serious buyer, I tell you something else that you should miss, you could look at Daniel getting printed copies of that. So when you've seen someone and you obviously send them out an electronic proposal, but you also then print off the proposal, you package it together with the Buyer's Guide, and you put those then into something called an impact box.

It's a nice looking box, not some dirty Amazon style cardboard box, but a nice box, a little bit of packaging to make it eco friendly, putting some chocolate, you know, you could put in another case study, you kind of fill it with stuff. And the idea is that if you have five MSPs going to see a client and one of them sends a box, follow up with a buyer's guide, a copy of the book, they've written some case studies and chocolate, and it's all got the face of the person they've met on it. Because they won't remember you’re APEX computing, but they'll remember your face and think, “Oh, that guy, whatever his name was, he was a nice guy, wasn't he? Oh, I liked him. Did you like him? I liked him. And then look, he sent us this box of stuff.”

You mentioned earlier that you convert about a third of your leads into clients, that can be the thing that can tip you into two thirds, because all you're doing is you're forcing yourself. But it's been very aggressive. But it's aggressive in a good way. Because you know, you want to beat everyone else, all of your competitors to win that business. So you've got to be as productive as you can at every single stage. Right from lead generation right through to the point that they're making the decision.

“You want to beat everyone else, all of your competitors to win that business. So you've got to be as productive as you can at every single stage.”

Shannon Murphy:

Yeah, super memorable. So I just wanted to before we hop off again, thank you guys so much for being here and letting us go through your site and I know it can be a tad overwhelming. We're asking you questions, like move this around, do that. But this was super fun, I love going through websites and just kind of checking things out. So if you have any follow up questions, please let us know.

I did want to summarize for everybody on the line real quick, some important points that I thought could not be overstressed. Finding that ideal audience, that ideal customer and the reason that Paul spent a lot of time on that upfront is because that then goes all into the strategy of, how are we going to find them? With outreach? How are we going to access them? What channels do multi-channel engagement?

I think something to underline there was even that example that Paul mentioned, of when you have to be consistent and persistent in your marketing so that you are able to find them at the right time. Think about whenever you've been frustrated with your vehicle, right? Those automotive companies are always marketing to you. But it's not until you've been frustrated that you were open and aware of that advertising or when you got sick of cooking your own meals and suddenly we're open to the meal services business, right? So we want to be, across multiple channels, to access them.

Then Paul's last point of how are you going to convert and commercialize them? How are you going to get them to switch from the incumbent. We need to go at this point beyond them just liking wonderful Daniel, and actually feeling like, Okay, I'm getting marketed consistently and I understand what this business stands for and what their value prop is. That is something that I just wanted to stress, I have more notes. But Paul, is there anything that you would want to add to that, before we wrap up.

Paul Green:

I think that's a great wrap up. My summary would be, you've got an incredible opportunity here, you've got a great business, you've got a really well designed website, you've got loads of traffic. So your opportunity is to spend the next three years tweaking every little bit so that everything is as optimized as it can be. As you grow your marketing resources from here, I think, and this is slightly different advice than I gave you before the call, I would look at actually, where's some very high level resource that you can get that can put this kind of optimization into place. So you can do these experiments for yourself.

It doesn't need to be a full time person. But I would be more inclined to hire a really, really good optimization expert for two to three hours a week to work on your sights, on all the aspects, the behind the scenes stuff, on the front of house stuff. I think that alone could make you almost double your new client acquisition just from what we're doing there.

Daniel Shone:

Why don't we find the outbound stuff? Why do we find these wonderful people, Paul?

Paul Green:

Yeah, that kind of stuff.

Shannon Murphy:

Yep, absolutely. That stands for anybody on the line. Shannon Murphy has events, feel free to email me. I've been in the marketing community a long time. I know a lot of people. So I'm always happy to help. So Chris and Daniel, I will circle back to you. Paul, thank you so much for being here. You're always fantastic. And I love the passion that you bring to this so much.

So I think with that we'll wrap up. We didn't have a lot of Q&A. Oh, one question. I just want to make sure I'm getting it right for Ross. Daniel, when you were incentivizing your texts, to get reviews from clients and for you that they secured they would get 20 pounds.

Daniel Shone:

That's right, the best 20 pounds to spend. Obviously it's just super silly.

Shannon Murphy:

Okay, all right. Just confirming that so there you go, Ross implements that strategy. Get those Google reviews. The fact that Apex has 120 Google reviews for their Maps listing is pretty enviable. So clearly, that's a tactic that works. Alright, thank you all. It's your day. Thank you. Bye.